You wanted to say...:

kimbarley - 2003-06-07 04:09:52
He should've done some back reading of your entries so that he could see all the research you do before putting things out there... how you always have links... I found the theory very interesting and it actually prompted me to do a bit more research. I hate it when people don't think before they speak...
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tigerknight - 2003-06-07 05:57:46
Your friend's argument "proves" too much: the "faith" aspect of the 9-11 attack and the rejection of all witnesses who claimed they were there, and conspiracy reasoning in general, follows the model of the "evil genius" of Descartes: we cannot know anything because someone may be fooling us about even the most basic truths. The only way Descartes could escape from the evil genius and establish "reliability" of observations by proving the existence of God (with a faulty proof): thus, all observations may be false. Your friend's conspiracy theory goes into this realm of epistemology: a minefield of philosophy that one enters into at risk. Perhaps he's the only engineer to honestly describe what he saw--and therefore, he can assert that the "hole was too small" while all other engineers are either fooled or part of the conspiracy. But that seems to be quite a stretch. A bit of skepticism is healthy: too much is fatal.
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gutterpoet - 2003-06-07 08:23:57
oh dear...
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book-wurm1 - 2003-06-07 08:38:26
all this makes me wonder what happened to flight 77 and the people on it ...
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jessica lovejoy - 2003-06-07 13:06:08
Gah, I accidentally went to Foxphoto's diary and now I have a headache. A big, FOX NEWS kinda headache. I mean, jeez, be a conservative all you want, but who likes Fox?! Ick. On a more serious note, Id like a response to the far more interesting (and smart) comment you got from Kuro (I think thats the name- it was the last comment on the pg)...any chance of that? (he didnt leave an address- grrr.) Im pretty undecided myself, but willing/eager to hear every side. Thanks as always. -JL
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WindyLady - 2003-06-07 13:55:05
That's what I am wondering. It seems the only comment Mr. Holmgren *didn't* respond to was, if it wasn't AA 77 that crashed into the Pentagon, where exactly *did* AA 77 go? Because, last I heard, the people aboard still haven't come home. And, why are we supposed to believe Mr. Holmgren's theory of what happened, when the exact reason he's debunking Mr. FOXphotog is the same reason he's giving us to believe his theory. "I know someone who was there, he saw it." Well I ask you, Mr. Holmgren, where are YOUR photographs? Where are YOUR 5 names - with verification? I have seen the footage of the plane hitting the pentagon. http://www.msnbc.com/news/720851.asp you can see the plane on the very right side of the screen before impact. Where is your evidence that this is fake? Proof! Proof! Proof! All you talk about is proof...Where is your proof? And you say that Bin Laden, the evil genius, was wrongly accused of this heinous crime? Then why did he claim responsibility? I'm not saying there isn't a possibility of our government being capable of this, if you can prove to me that your theory is true, then so be it. But so far I haven't seen any cold hard facts, proof, pictures, testimonies, etc. from your theory.
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eyesopen - 2003-06-07 13:56:49
While I do believe the Bush administration has much to hide in terms of what they knew in advance, and that this is their reason for suppressing the congressional 800-page investigation about 911, and resisting a full blue ribbon investigation as called for by many, Mr. Holmgren's conspiracy fantasies are so preposterous as to discredit the whole questioning community, and thus do more harm than good, by allowing the official story backers to dismiss all criticism as conspiracy theory wackos. Let's not get carried away, but keep pressing for the truth.
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Ravyne - 2003-06-07 14:02:02
Windylady, I have forwarded your comments to Mr. Holmgren. He answers me fairly quickly, so I will post any response I get from him as an Update on this topic entry.
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WindyLady - 2003-06-07 15:17:09
Thanks, I look forward to reading it. It does my mind good to have something to think about and someone to challenge my beliefs. I love a good debate! :)
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WindyLady - 2003-06-07 15:17:53
Thanks, I look forward to reading it. It does my mind good to have something to think about and someone to challenge my beliefs. I love a good debate! :)
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WindyLady - 2003-06-07 15:18:02
Thanks, I look forward to reading it. It does my mind good to have something to think about and someone to challenge my beliefs. I love a good debate! :)
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WindyLady - 2003-06-07 15:19:06
Wow, sorry about that. My computer freaked out.
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Carla - 2003-06-07 17:03:40
WOW. I second Kimbarley on hating it when people don't think before they speak -- whole lotta that happened, especially in Diaryland, leading up and during the invasion of Iraq. And shit yeah -- I am a sucker for any word-game/found poem/phrase-generator thing!!! They get my brain juice goin!
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Carla - 2003-06-07 17:03:55
WOW. I second Kimbarley on hating it when people don't think before they speak -- whole lotta that happened, especially in Diaryland, leading up and during the invasion of Iraq. And shit yeah -- I am a sucker for any word-game/found poem/phrase-generator thing!!! They get my brain juice goin!
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FOXPhotog - 2003-06-07 23:49:11
Wow, ya take two days off and the world blows up... Ok, I'll get around to writing about all of this in the next day or two but I wanted to respond to a couple of things. Number one: I shall not be operating on anyone's percieved schedule for posts and responses. Don't like it, cope, I have a real-life job. Number two: If my first hand account of what I witnessed on Sept. 11th, 2001 aren't proof enough, I do have videotape that proves it. Some I shot, some was shot by my colleagues. All is original. The true horror of that day is that so many innocent people died. And again I ask you, where is AA flight 77? I've spoken with the pilot's widow and interviewed her... and you? Let me guess, she is a CIA plant-- an operative of the evil Bush Adminstration... right...
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Titus - 2003-06-07 23:53:16
I enjoy reading you Journal and you bring up many good points about what you write. Bush is a lair and a moron, and I respect you for what you said. ~Titus~
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Kelsey - 2003-06-08 01:05:21
Okay. I have one comment to make. The guy who thinks that there was no plane crash, he is telling the Foxphoto guy that he is a pathetic conspiracy theorist. Excuse me?! Who the hell is it that thinks there was no plane crash when the rest of us are told that there was one. So who is the conspiracy theorist here? Besides, does it really make a difference? The people on that flight are dead, whether by Al Qaeda or not. And you can't say that they used the war to start the war in Iraq, because Iraq and Al Qaeda are not linked. The 'justification' for the war is WMD, which they have no found, of course, because they do not exist. We all know that our government has screwed up and that the people need to get taken out of power. But seriously folks, do you REALLY truly think that there was no crash in the pentagon? Why would they do that? They didn't use it to start the war, so why?
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apocalizardn - 2003-06-08 01:15:34
i see dead people...really.
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sinnergi - 2003-06-08 01:17:48
hon, I just jumped over here from Pandionna's, and read through the entire article you linked to, and also your current entry, and honestly, you've made me think. Thanks for the intellectual stimulation--this is something I'm going to be pondering for a long time.
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gutterpoet - 2003-06-08 08:59:52
Well! Finding Mr. Holmgren's article quite funny, I was surprised to find it was not a parody piece at all. I went to the source website and read his articles. Sure enough, as if taken from the conspiracy kook playbook, is an article calling into question if the holocaust ever happened. ahem. At this point it ceases to be funny at all. He also finds Marx a bit too capitalistic for his liking. I am not sure Mr.Homgren's occupation, but with his "creative" take on events seems to be the sort of reporting they favor at the New York Times these days. They could use a man like him!!
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EqualTime - 2003-06-08 14:36:13
Less Credible? Than this yahoo??!!?? FoxPhotog doesn't sound like a raving lunatic to me, this other guys does. This guy who you, Ravyne, says has facts has presented NONE. All he has done is spout off some crazy left-wing, idea about how all of this is a gov't conspircay. It seems that Foxphotog has a history about this event to back him up, just go back and look at his entries from just after 9-11-01. I'm still undecided about this debate, but your "debunker" sounds like he forgot to take his medication. Let's see some real facts Mr. Holmgren, not just kooky connections you make between disparate things. That is not fact, that is lunacy.
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Windy - 2003-06-09 13:18:06
Wow. So far I am seriously inclined to believe FoxPhotog over Mr. Holmgren. First, the debunker demands proof, and yet all he offers is hearsay (if he has something else, some actual proof of what he's raving about, let him show it). Second, I have little respect for his tactics. Third, FoxPhotog has at least said he had video to back him up, which is more than Mr. Holmgren has done. And finally, frankly, between the impressions I have gotten of both of them FoxPhotog sound quite a bit more sane. And his staying silent doesn't make him less credible in my eyes; I know how often he posts, so going out of his way to respond toi this quickly would seem more out of character and less credible to me. Anyway, that's all for now. I'm going ot go read the rest, and we'll see where I stand after that.
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Kevin - 2003-06-09 20:30:38
Mr. Holmgren is a raving lunatic. I live in the DC area, too. I know people who lost loved ones in that crash. I know people that were there, working, that day. I saw the Pentagon after he crash. And so did thousands of others.
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maria - 2003-06-20 13:10:46
Man, this kind of stuff makes me want to have the resources to do my own investigation. :-D I can honestly say right now that I am not sure what I believe. Both have some compelling arguments. Mr. Holmgren has lots of circumstantial evidence, and logical arguments. FoxPhotog has lots of claims of eyewitness testimony. Now if this video exists and says what he says it will and is real then that is that, but as we still have yet to see it, test it, etc., its difficult to make any sort of judgement on this evidence. Mr. Holmgren's arguements are based on things that I also would like more proof of, measurements and specific information, accident reconstructionist testimony etc. Meanwhile, I would like to say that eyewitness testimony, while heralded as some sort of holy grail of evidence is not as reliable as many believe it to be. As an undergrad psychology major, I have read studies on eyewitness testimony. It is very malleable and easily shaped by suggestion. One study successfully produced false childhood memories in adults minds through suggestive questioning. Let me see if I can find a link or two. Here's one: http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/sciam.htm Oh and one on creating false memories in general: http://comp.uark.edu/~lampinen/biblio.html So, as this research will show you, false memories, incorrect eyewitness testimony is more than possible, it's likely. Especially under stress, and while listening to someone tell you what happened. And think about what was happening that day. People were under great stress and fear that day, and meanwhile the media is reporting airplane crashes in NY. Something is destroyed in DC and the immediate response is it's an airplane, even while the media is also claiming it is. Seeing as FoxPhotog has only eyewitness testimony (until we get to see the unsurfaced video) I find that less believable than the logical deductions made by Holmgren. Yes they need some more sources to back them up, but assuming for the moment that the facts are correct...they are very persuasive. So please FoxPhotog, give us the video tape. Let it be analyzed. After all, you have nothing to hide, right?
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xox - 2003-07-02 16:05:13
what can i say more... no 757. traces on the wall ~30m wingspann, never ever 38m, with a central symetrie exactly in the entry point __o__ (not forgiving the entry angle) 100m/s the hole is to small. same thing if you check it inside... no traces on the lawn where the engines would be 1m digged. have a look at the official "seismic data investigation" to determine the exact time of impact on the pent and conclusion: htt://0911.site.voila.fr/seismic.htm not to mention the goebbels like disinfo about this event & psyops spreading the net... no 757. wake up all... sick people are in power with lies.
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so tell me...:

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Ahhhh...thanks, I needed that!

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