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2003-06-07 - 2:28 a.m.

The Debunker Responds

On June 3rd, I posted an article entitled Debunking conspiracy theorists' paranoid fantasies about Sept. 11 by Gerard Holmgren. In the comments' section, FOXPhotog wrote the following comment:

    Wow. It takes more faith to believe that garbage than it does to accept the facts of the events we all witnessed. As to the Pentagon, I was there that day, about 10 minutes after Flight 77 crashed into Wedge 1. I've spoken to the VA State police officer who, upon seeing the plane crash into the Pentagon, ran into the burning building and began saving people. His lungs and throat were burned by inhaling jet fuel vapors. He almost died. I've seen the wreckage of the plane that hit. I saw it before investagators got to it. Of all things to call a conspiracy the slaughter of 3000 innocent Americans is one that sickening. I encourage the factually challenged moron who wrote the article to write me and we'll see how long his "theory" can stand up to hard facts.

I sent his comment to Mr. Holmgren and received the following response from him:

    {{ It takes more [[faith]] to believe that garbage than it does to accept the facts of the events [[we all witnessed.]] }}

    I've highlighted those words for a reason, which I'll come back to.

    {{ I was there...I've spoken to... I've seen the wreckage...I saw it before...can stand up to hard facts. }}

    Hard facts, eh? " I was there,I spoke to, I saw,I've seen..."

    So we take you on [[ faith ]],eh?

    No photos, no footage, no other witnesses,no physical evidence to support this crazy conspiracy theory. Just a pleading insistance that "I saw,I spoke to,I've seen..." And we're supoosed to take this on [[faith ]].

    " Honestly, the little green man, was right there, I SAW it! I SPOKE to it! Why doesn't anyone believe me?"

    Then this mad conspiracy theorist tries to extrapolate "I saw, I've spoken to,I've seen..." into an event that "we all witnessed.", which is then extrapolated into "facts of the events." Very creative!

    Then the conspiracy theorist demands "hard facts" to the contrary, having presented no more evidence for his own crazy delusion than a whining,pleading insistence that "I saw it." (Honest, I really did..)

    A solid object cannot pass through another solid object without leaving a hole at least as big as itself. But try telling that to a conspiracy theorist...

    Here's some "hard facts." I have a cousin who lives in Washington. He was there...He spoke to people who saw the missile hit the building...he saw them remove the remains of it... His testimony is proof of what we all witnessed... (honest, he really was there...)

    What really grates on me is that this idiot wants to turn the slaughter of 3000 people into a vehicle for self glorification and attention seeking, with spurious claims that he witnessed an event which clearly didn't happen,and is clearly physically impossible.

    What does our attention seeking traitor have to say about the stand down of the US force on Sept 11? What about the insider trading on airline stocks in the week prior - linked to the CIA ?

    What about the traitor Bush lying about where he was and what he knew and continuing to read to school kids for another 25 minutes and then wasting another 10-15 minutes with a pointless speech to the nation, as the crisis was still unfolding? What about the proven criminality of the adminsistration in that even if flight 77 did hit the pentagon, then all it proves is that Andrews airbase was stood down? What about the muderous demolition of the WTC towers when workers and firefighters were still inside?

    No, our attention seeking traitor doesn't care that the US govt murdered 3000 of its own people as an excuse to murder even more people in a war which was already planned prior to Sept 11, and then ficticously presented as a response to the "surpise" of Sept 11.

    All our attention seeking traitor cares about is using the opportunity to trumpet {{ I was there...I've spoken to... I've seen the wreckage...I saw it before... }} (Honest, I really really did!)

    Unlike this deranged attention seeker, the reports of firefighters who heard bombs going off in the WTC are documented - from very soon after the event. Unlike this deranged attention seeker, the story of the footage which shows Bush nodding as if an appointment had been changed by 10 minutes,and then continuing to read to kids after being told "America is under attack" is real and documented. Unlike this deranged attention seeker,the media documentation which proves that Bush is lying about where he was and what he was doing and what he knew when the first plane hit the tower is thoroughly documented. Unlike this deranged attention seeker, the photographic evidence that no plane anywhere approaching the size of a 757 went into the pentagon is thoroughly documented.

    There sure are some sick people out there. The govt murders 3000 of its own people as an excuse to go and murder even more in other coutries, and all this guy can do is use it as opportunity to bleat that he knows something the rest of us don't because he "was there." ( Honest, I really, really, really was !)

Later that day, I received another comment from FOXPhotog:

    Ravyne, What part of what I wrote did you not read? I WAS THERE! I saw with my own eyes the things this article says didn't happen. Was I somehow duped along with the thousands of others who saw the plane hit the Pentagon? There were so many eyewitnesses that to say it didn't happen is folly. It takes an enormous amount of delusion to believe these things didn't happen as we reported them. The plane (AA Flight 77) crashed about 20 yards short of the outerwall of Wedge 1. Hence the *HUGE* trench that extends from the helipad to the point of impact at Wedge 1. No wreckage??? I saw the landing gear, we have video of it for crying out loud! The plane's wreckage was strune from Rt. 27 all the way over to I-395! I can back all of what I'm saying with the raw (read: unedited, as I shot it) video from Sept. 11, 2001. Were you there that day? Did you see the Pentagon burning and smell the jet fuel that permeated the air? Did you see bodies being dragged out of the Pentagon? Did you hear the screamed warning of another plane inbound? No you were not and you did not. If you choose not to believe cold, hard facts I guess you're hopeless. PT is correct, I don't know why I waste my time. The facts of what I SAW are irrefuteable. If you or anyone else wants to try to debunk ANYTHING about the Pentagon crash, email me if you have the facts and the courage to back up your ridiculious claims (or the claims of others you post). I believe you have neither one. One last question: If a plane did not crash into the Pentagon, where is Flight 77 and the people who were aboard?

So again, I sent this to Mr. Holmgren and received the following reply:

    [[I WAS THERE! I saw with >my own eyes... I saw the landing gear...The facts of what I SAW are irrefuteable...]]

    Honest, I really ,really,really,really was! I REALLY SAW the bad spaceman with the turban! Why doesn't anybody believe me? Can't you understand that if I SAY that I SAW it , then that's proof?

    So, having challenged this pathetic conspiracy theorist to provide some hard facts other than this laughable bleating that " I WAS THERE!" all we get is more of the same.

    [[I WAS THERE! I saw with my own eyes... I saw the landing gear...The facts of what I SAW are irrefuteable...]]

    Hm, its irrefutable, because he claims that he saw it. Hey, the other day, I set a new world record by jumping over a 35 ft building. No-one else saw it, but I TELL you, I did it - and thats IRREFUTABLE, damn you!)

    Hey, space-cadet, what about my cousin? He was there. (He really,really was!) He SAW the missile hit the building. (He really ,really did!)

    [[the thousands of others who saw the plane hit the Pentagon]]

    name 5 - with verification.

    [[There were so many eyewitnesses]] name 5,space cadet - with verification

    [[as we reported them. ]] who's "we"?

    [[The plane (AA Flight 77) crashed about 20 yards short of the outerwall of Wedge 1.]] -according to ? Since you don't claim to have actually seen it yourself.

    [[Hence the *HUGE* trench that extends from the helipad to the point of impact at Wedge 1. ]]

    Photos please.

    [[ I saw the landing gear, we have video of it for crying out loud!]]

    Verification please.

    [[The plane's wreckage was strune from >Rt. 27 all the way over to I-395!]]

    Photos please.

    [[I can back all of what I'm saying with the raw (read: unedited, as I shot it) video from Sept. 11, 2001.]]

    Then do so. Please link to any previous web posting of the footage or any previous airing of it by a recognized news outlet. If there is no previous airing or posting of it, please explain why you have kept it secret until now.

    [[Did you see the Pentagon burning and smell the jet fuel that permeated the air? ]]

    I was there ! I really,really,really,really was!!! And I saved some of the jet fuel vapour in a bottle - so there!

    BTW, no one denies there was a fire.That provides no evidence that it was a 757. it could have been a missile, a plane, a truck bomb. And the smell of jet fuel doesn't provide any evidence that it was a 757,it could have been an F16,an F15, a DC 10, a 757 or a Concord etc The thing is - only two of the above are small enough to have any chance of having made such a small hole - and a 757 isn't one of those two.

    [[Did you see bodies being dragged out of the Pentagon? ]]

    No one denies that about 125 people were killed in the building. So what ? "AHA!" screams the mad conspiracy theorist. "People were killed! " That just PROVES that it was a 757! A missile wouldn't have killed anyone! An F16 wouldn't have killed anyone! A truck bomb wouldn't have killed anyone! Only 757s kill people if they crash into buildings! HA HA!" (Fruit loop warning...)

    [[If you choose not to believe cold, hard facts I guess you're hopeless.]]

    Well,it might help if actually provided some instead of vague unsubstantaited drivel about thousands of ficticious witnesses, and non-existent strewn wreckage which you can't or won't provide photos of , and the "huge" trench, which also somehow escaped your camera or anybody else's.

    You were specifically challenged to provide cold hard facts, and all you can come up with is more bleating,whining,tiresome bullshit about how "I WAS THERE." (BTW, fruit loop - are you calling my cousin a liar? )

    Notice how our bleating, attention seeking, conspriacy nut never offered any opinion on:
    The stand down of the US airforce.
    The fact that even if AA 77 did hit the pentagon, then it proves that Andrews airbase was stood down.
    Bush's criminal, complicit behavior on the morning, and the subsequent lies he's told to try cover up where he was and what he knew.
    The CIA's insider trading on airline stocks.
    The fact that the invasion of Afgahnistan was already planned prior to S 11.
    The controlled demolition of the WTC and rushing away of the debris for recycling before any analysis could be carried out.
    How Bush and Cheney have fought tooth and nail against any investigation into Sept 11.
    The lack of any reconstruction of the remains of AA 77, as is standard practice in any avaition disaster.

    Thats right - you can't have it both ways. If there's plenty of plane wreckage, then its standard practice, is to put all the bits back together as much as possible, to try figure out the exact mechnaics of its disintegration. If there's plenty of wreckage, why hasn't this been done? And if there's not enough wreckage to even bother trying - how were you able to tell - on the spot - with the wreckage scattered everywhere - that it was a 757?

    Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!

Oh yes, this may get interesting! The ball is firmly in FOXPhotog's court, but as he told me, I do not operate on your or anyone else's schedule. I'll email him when I get a chance, but there are other things far more important. For me, this is a hobby, not my existance. Next time keep your chiding in check until you have the facts straight. Then again, facts don't really seem to permeate you consciousness. Well, Mr. FOXPhotog, Mr. Holmgren has some facts for you and is waiting the ones you claim to have. Please, take your time in responding. Heaven knows I wouldn't want to rush you. Just keep in mind: the longer you are silent, the less credible you are.

Here are some other websites concerning the 911 Investigation, specifically the Pentagon but to some extent the WTC also. Some of this work has been done by Dick Eastman:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/77_deastman1.htm
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/77_deastman2.htm
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/77_deastman3.htm
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/9-11-demonstrative-evidence-of-frameup/
http://www.freedomfiles.org/war
http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm
http://www.911dossier.co.uk/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jpdesm/pentagon/
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/ericbart
http://www.ifrance.fr/silentbutdeadly/
http://www.the-movement.com/Hijackers/Agents.htm
http://www.communitycurrency.org/pi.html
http://www.koolpages.com/killtown/flight77.html
http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/messenger.html
http://www.truthout.org
http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero14/missile/temoins_en.htm
http://www.waronfreedom.mediamonitors.net/index.html
http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm
http://amigaphil.planetinternet.be/PentagonCrash.html
http://disc.server.com/Indices/149495.html
http://www.etherzone.com
http://www.antiwar.com
http://www.serendipity.li/wtc.html#preface
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/
http://www.911timeline.net/
http://www.tomflocco.com/bush_may_invoke_9.htm

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